Scams Exploiting Emotions with Alan Castel

“Broadly speaking, we’re all susceptible to scams. We have this stereotype that older adults are more prone to scams and are more gullible, but the truth is, there’s a scam out there for everyone.” - Alan Castel Share on X

We can easily stereotype those we believe are susceptible to a scam. But the scammers are keeping up with current events and are prepared to take advantage of our basic human emotions. The impact of these frauds is underreported due to the shame and embarrassment. 

Today’s guest is Alan Castel. Alan is a Psychology professor at The University of California Los Angeles. He studies learning, memory, fraud, and aging. His work has been featured in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and Time Magazine. He recently published a book entitled Better With Age: The Psychology of Successful Aging.

“Scams focus on our human nature of trying to make sense of the world and our emotional brain. Scams prey on our basic emotions.” - Alan Castel Share on X

Show Notes:

• [1:08] – Alan shares his background and what he focuses on as a psychologist.
• [3:33] – We are all susceptible to scams, regardless of the stereotypes.
• [5:50] – Scams focus on our human nature of trying to make sense of the world and our emotional brain. Scams prey on our basic emotions.
• [7:34] – Scams are tailor made to expose our vulnerabilities.
• [8:50] – Some scams are situational and can be completely believable.
• [10:05] – There are people who are much more vulnerable to scams, but it’s not based on stereotypes.
• [12:48] – Education and awareness can come from podcasts like this, but it also needs to come from people who have experienced a scam.
• [15:33] – Although scams don’t only target older adults, the elderly tend to be more susceptible to scams that target their need to help others.
• [18:19] – There are some phrases that aren’t always recognized as false because they sound scientific.
• [20:48] – There are websites and organizations that support scam victims, and it is highly recommended that you report anything that happens.
• [22:32] – Alan admits that he has fallen victim to a scam on a website, entering his credit card information to purchase something.
• [26:37] – Alan describes a reinforcement schedule, which is a psychological tactic to build relationships.
• [28:10] – Scams are clever and Alan sees their potential to use psychological principles to part people from their money.
• [32:30] – How does memory play a role in scam vulnerability?
• [35:05] – Alan describes the “foot in the door” technique.
• [37:02] – It comes down to curiosity as human nature.

“Scammers are like amateur psychologists in the wild. They are using simple psychological principles to make people part with their money.” - Alan Castel Share on X

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Transcript:

Alan, thank you so much for coming on the Easy Prey Podcast today.

It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Can you give myself and the audience a little bit of background about who you are and what you do?

Sure. My name is Alan Castel. I'm a professor of cognitive psychology at the University of California, Los Angeles. My main areas of interest for research is studying memory, how it changes with age, and how factors might make us susceptible to scams and fraud.

That's really cool. It sounds like we're going to have a great discussion today. It's right up my alley. How long have you been studying about how memory and aging affects our susceptibility?

I had an interest in this when I had older grandparents. I think that's where it all got started. I noticed they sometimes confused my name with my brother's name, but they could still remember how much they paid for gas or groceries. I noticed certain changes in their memories, same with my parents, and now even my own memory.

I think I've been studying it for a long time, but I was fortunate to find this research path. I've been studying it for 20 years now at UCLA. I was a postdoc at Washington University in St. Louis, and I received my PhD from the University of Toronto. That explains this Canadian accent that I still seem to have a little bit.

It's very subtle. No one would notice it if you don't mention it.

OK.

Was it because of your grandparents that really got you interested in this, or is that just a sign?

That's a bit of an anecdote. I think when I noticed those changes, I didn't know people studied this. I wasn't thinking professionally. But in high school, I memorized things to do well on tests. I memorized the entire periodic table. I did this not because I had a good memory, but because I made up mnemonics, rhymes or used imagery to remember things that I didn't really care about or understand, but I needed to know for a test.

It was only in my first year of college that I knew that I took the psychology course and it opened up this whole area. I always thought of psychology as studying clinical psychology, but this whole area of experimental psychology that looked at how we learn, how we remember, why we forget, I was hooked. I felt like I'd been doing this already for 10 years playing with my own memories.

It's really interesting to study how memory works—false memory, why we don't always remember things the way we think we will. I've been doing a lot of work on just the malleability of memory and how it changes with age.

We could go down a deep rabbit hole on the malleability of memory. I would love to have that conversation with you at some point, but that's not what we're talking about today. We'll talk on the broad level first. How does aging affect our susceptibility towards scams?

I think broadly speaking, we're all susceptible to scams. I think we have the stereotype that older adults are prone to scams, gullible, or lonely, but the truth is there's a scam out there for everyone. I think that should get people aware that these scams are not specifically targeting you, me, or older people. They're broad-based on going after a bunch of people. They work on large numbers.

I think broadly speaking, we're all susceptible to scams. I think we have the stereotype that older adults are prone to scams, gullible, or lonely, but the truth is there's a scam out there for everyone. -Alan Castel Share on X

There are call centers, there are emails, and there are all sorts of things, but there are scams that are then tailored towards specific groups. Sometimes it's people who are lonely, people who are looking for romance, people who are looking for money. We're all looking for money. But older adults often have more assets, so they have more to lose.

I think that's why it's concerning that if an older adult is engaged and gets scammed, it can be shameful. A lot of older adults will not report that they've been scammed because they're ashamed. Often if they tell their adult children, their adult children say, “Look what's happening to mom or dad. We have to be careful with them. We might have to take over power of attorney.”

It's an underreported thing, and I think that that's part of it. We need to be more aware that this happens to everyone, it happens to smart people, it happens to lonely people, it happens to very, very aware people. It probably can happen to you and me on any given day. We have to be on our toes, so that's why I think it's a problem, something we should all be aware of, and something we should be talking about more that it's not something that you should be ashamed of.

If it's happened to you, you should tell people. If it's almost happened to you, you should tell people, because chances are they'll be able to have a similar conversation or say that happened to a friend of mine. The more we talk about it, the more we're aware that these things exist.

The more we talk about it, the more we're aware that these things exist. -Alan Castel Share on X

Let's unpack that shame and embarrassment angle. I don't want to say controlled by shame, but why is that seems to be such a powerful state that prevents us from doing stuff?

I think scams focus on our human nature of trying to make sense of the world and our emotional brain. A lot of these scams are preying on very basic emotions that we all have, a need to connect, a need to gain, and a need to understand the world. If we work it at that level, I think we're all in this position to make money, to be curious. All of these things can also have a dark side to them, and that's where scammers exploit this very basic human nature.

I think scams focus on our human nature of trying to make sense of the world and our emotional brain. A lot of these scams are preying on very basic emotions that we all have, a need to connect, a need to gain, and a need to… Share on X

I think when it happens to us, we then think, “Oh, my gosh. How could have this happened or started out so friendly,” or, “I thought I knew this person.” As a result, we think it could only have happened to me like, “Gosh, I started down this hole. It’s because of me that I kept talking on the phone.”

Oftentimes, scammers will target things that we all have vulnerabilities. There was a recent case with therapists. The scammer called and said, “You've missed jury duty.” This is a common one. “Your license can be revoked if you've missed jury duty and you're a therapist.” I'm not sure that's true, but it's going to get a therapist very concerned that their reputation is on the line and maybe they have missed jury duty. They don't know, and now they've started like, “I need to protect myself. What can I do to get out of this problem?”

If you think very rationally, it's like, “What do I need to do to fix this?” The scammer is very quick to say, “Well, listen. I can help you.” That's another basic property of our brain. We're trying to solve puzzles all the time and make sense of things. These are very intelligent people who want to help people, and they get caught up in this thing. It's tailor made, really, to expose our vulnerabilities.

Interesting. One of the things that you mentioned is exploiting our intelligence. I think one of the common thoughts behind scams is—and I'm going to be blunt or mean depending on how you choose to look at it—is people that fall victim to scams that they're not smart people, they're dumb, when the evidence seems to be a little bit not that way, correct?

Yeah, the evidence is quite interesting in terms of if you use level of formal education as a metric for intelligence, which it certainly isn't always. But oftentimes, people who have a high degree of formal education are very prone to scams, because they use a lot of logic to think through why this timeshare they're being presented might actually make sense. Mathematically, they've been selected because they visit Mexico frequently.

But oftentimes, people who have a high degree of formal education are very prone to scams, because they use a lot of logic to think through why this timeshare they're being presented might actually make sense. -Alan Castel Share on X

These scammers are often well prepared. They come with good data, and they know your profile sometimes too well. Especially if you're not aware of how they got this information, you might think, “I've been selected for this; I'm a fortunate person.” That can lead you to do some things that you might not do if you took yourself out of that situation. Some of it is very situationally dependent.

Another scam is on timeshares where they'll call you. They know that you own a timeshare. They'll say that your timeshare is in demand right now, and they've noticed you haven't been using it frequently, and that maybe taxes haven't been paid as promptly. Then they'll give you some opportunity to sell this timeshare or sell a portion of it, which might actually be something you've been contemplating for a while. Now you see this as an opportunity. It's almost like you don't want this opportunity to go away. As a result, you rationalized why you should stay on the phone.

Some of these scammers, they just want you on the phone longer. That's another cautionary tale I tell people is sometimes people think they're too smart for these scammers. They like keeping them on the phone and chatting with them. They'll measure how long you stay on the phone for, record that, and then sell your contact information. Just staying on the phone is actually a liability in terms of being called again, being marked as someone who might be interested, but didn't fall for it this time.

They'll measure how long you stay on the phone for, record that, and then sell your contact information. Just staying on the phone is actually a liability in terms of being called again, being marked as someone who might be… Share on X

Is that an indicator of our vulnerability, the longer that we might spend on time on the phone with somebody even if it's not a scammer?

Yeah, it's hard to find these indicators necessarily. Loneliness or people who just answer the phone are going to be more vulnerable. Even if you have a landline, you might be more vulnerable. The outlet to getting people is just how to contact them. Sometimes it's text message. It depends on the generations. Different age people respond to different things.

The outlet to getting people is just how to contact them. Sometimes it's text message. It depends on the generations. Different age people respond to different things. -Alan Castel Share on X

Our vulnerabilities are another one that was going around was student loans. The news six months ago, a month ago, saying things that there might be an opportunity to get your student loans paid for. All of a sudden you're a student, you're hearing this, or you've had loans for 10 years, and now you're getting a phone call that sounds very relevant to what you've heard on the news.

As a result, you want to listen because you don't know how they might be contacting you. Was it by mail? All of a sudden, you're on the phone, and you're interested in listening and hearing more. They just need a little bit of information so they can make sure your file is updated and correct. You provide a little bit of information and next thing you know, or maybe don't know, that there's some identity theft going on. Sometimes you don't even know when it's happened. I think that's another concerning thing.

Again, these are smart individuals, often recent college grads. The stakes are sometimes lower for younger people. That's why in terms of the stats, we have this stereotype that it's older people because it's older people who can lose a lot more, whereas younger people might get identity theft or lose a few thousand dollars.

Yeah, I've heard of somewhat more recent studies indicating that the younger audience is actually more likely to be scammed, but the dollar amounts are smaller, where older populations are less likely to be scammed, but the dollar amounts are higher. There are differences at both ends of the spectrum.

Absolutely, and it's a different type of scam. Sometimes it's a dollar amount, sometimes it's identity theft, which can be as damaging for the long term if someone's using your identity. Yeah, you're right, and I think that's something to be aware of. These stereotypes that we have that they're older adults who might not understand technology or AI, it's actually all of us. The right scam can certainly find you.

We were talking a little bit about awareness. How much does awareness of scams and talking about scams with friends and family affect our ability to be scammed?

Again, it's an underreported event when someone's scammed. We talked a little bit about the shame or embarrassment, but then the awareness can sometimes come from reading about it or hearing about it on the news, but sometimes it's from someone else who tells you, “This happened to me,” or, “This almost happened to me,” that makes you aware of it.

I think this is some research that we're interested in doing. If someone shares something with you, you might think, “Oh, that's crazy; Chris almost fell for that. That would never happen to me.” It's the curse of knowledge. When you hear about a scam and you're on the outside looking in, you think, “That seems a good scam, but I wouldn't have gone for it.” But you're not in that emotional kind of state.

We're trying to see when people are in a more emotional state or when they're told, “How would you feel if this happened to you?” Then people might think, “Gosh, I would feel frustrated, embarrassed, I'd be confused, or I'd ask more questions.” These are all things that make you realize, “Wait a second, this could happen to me.”

The thing about scams is they're so dynamic that just because you've learned about the scam that happened last month or three months ago, that doesn't mean it's the scam that's going to get you in three months. It's going to be a different one. Sometimes a variation, and sometimes a brand new one. While scams will often prey on our very basic emotional needs, they're moving. They're fast-paced and they're keeping up with current events. I think that's why it's hard to stay up to date with the latest scam.

While scams will often prey on our very basic emotional needs, they're moving. They're fast-paced and they're keeping up with current events. I think that's why it's hard to stay up to date with the latest scam. -Alan Castel Share on X

Are there ways that we can inoculate ourselves?

Yeah, I think it's hard to be completely inoculated because it's always changing. But I think the first part is just the contact. The IRS will never be contacting you. It's hard to get in touch with the IRS. If they're reaching out to you, you should be critical, and I think that that's the first thing.

I had older grandparents, again, when I think back who would often talk on the phone, but I also heard them hang up the phone. They get a call and just hang up. I was like, “Gosh, that sounded so rude,” when I was young, but now I understand it. It's even more prevalent with AI using voices using orders that you recently made on Amazon. They have a lot of information on you.

I think the inoculation part is sadly, you have to be wary of social media. What you're sharing online is going to be used by scammers. This is another common scam where grandchildren might be traveling somewhere, and they're sharing things on Instagram. Then the grandparent gets a phone call, and the phone call is saying, “Your daughter's in trouble; we need bail money.”

You hear it in the background, and then she says, “Grandpa, don't call mom and dad; just send the money.” It sounds like something horrible has happened. This makes use of very well-known psychological research that older adults want to help. They want to help their immediate family.

Especially if they're told, “Don't tell mom and dad. I'm reaching out to you because you're special and I trust you.” All of a sudden, you want to work fast and quickly. You want to protect your family. That was a scam that's going around. It's only going to get more convincing with AI and use of familiar voices. It's a concerning thing. Like I say, don't answer the phone, be cautious of emails, but you will get phone calls that sound very compelling.

I've done some work before as an expert witness on why we might be contacted. Some of these things are things as simple as a free magazine subscription, which sounds like it's a free magazine subscription and you get to choose up to four magazines. This is not targeting older people, this is targeting often receptionists at doctor's offices where you might be making some decisions for your business.

This sounds reasonable and you need magazines, but what you're not told, at least initially, is that the price of shipping is exorbitant at $7 a magazine. You've ordered five magazines every month. All of a sudden, you're getting a bill. The bill is for this shipping charge, and you're thinking shipping for—“I thought these were free magazines.” The magazine's free, but the shipping isn't. You're not really paying attention to that thing.

That's not a scam that's rushing you or putting you in an emotional state. They just keep mentioning free and you're distracted, busy, and doing a few other things. All of a sudden, you're getting these bills that you're not sure. “Why am I paying this? How much longer am I going to be paying this?” That was an interesting and concerning scam that's still circulating.

It blurs the border of what is a scam versus what is an offer that's too good to be true. “I agreed to it, but I didn't know the full terms.” Scams are not always these things that just sound crazy and end up being a complete scam. Sometimes it's people trying to take advantage of you.

Yeah, there can be a fine line between deceptive marketing and scams. With the deceptive marketing, technically you're getting the product. It might not have been exactly what you were expecting or at the price that you were expecting, but there was a product. The frauds are usually real.

Yeah, and you agree to these things. We've also done another study, and this relates to more of the memory research we do. There's a lot of products that will say they're clinically studied. If you have a poor memory and you see this product that has a bottle or an advertisement, it sounds like it's scientifically backed and clinically studied, you think, “OK, this works.”

The truth is people misremember phrases like clinically studied as clinically proven because that's the more common phrasing that we'd expect. Sometimes our expectations really shape what we'll remember or what we want to think. Not everything is regulated by FDA or needs to be. These phrases just sound science-y, and that's how we remember it.

That's another instance where our brain is playing a trick on us. Again, we're trying to make sense of the world. What does it mean, clinically studied? They're currently studying it or they studied it but didn't find anything, but they still studied it? I think we have to be cautious, we have to be critical.

I always tell people to take your time. There's usually not a rush, even though a lot of these offers will say it's a limited-time offer. “We’re targeting you because your time share is one that's in demand right now,” or if you hang up the phone and say, “I'm happy to receive more information in writing; let me think about it, let me talk to my immediate family.” I think the biggest thing is get off the phone.

Yeah. I like your clinically studied reference. “Oh, there's science.” “Yeah. We did a clinical study that proved our product doesn't work, but we're not going to tell you that.”

Exactly. Some testimonies are often important. If people can share it, they've been scammed or fraud, that can be helpful. There's a lot of hurdles out there to get over. Some of these things work on, again, trying to rush people. “You have a computer virus. We’ll immediately shut down everything.” You're not maybe super computer literate, and now all of a sudden this message on your screen that's giving you some tech support that can help you.

Scams Exploiting Emotions with Alan Castel Share on X

You think, “Oh, great, we can solve this problem. They're only charging $19.99.” That seems reasonable, but they're not. They're taking your credit card information, it's a scam, it's a fraud. But by the time you've fixed your computer and sat back for a second, you realize, “Wait a second. I just gave my credit card to a group I don't know anything about.”

Yeah, that's the scary thing. Are there techniques that we can use to help people overcome the shame and embarrassment to increase reporting?

Yeah. There are definitely websites that are reputable that are looking for you to report scams so they can keep up with it, like the Federal Trade Commission. AARP has some good support. I think it's helpful to talk about these things.

Yes, sometimes you're concerned about talking to family or even friends about it, but I think that's the first step. I think it helps people understand how it can happen to anyone. A lot of times when you start sharing something—I like doing this in my classes at UCLA—I’ll share some scam or something, and inevitably a few hands will come up and they'll say, “Oh, that happened to my mother-in-law, that happened to my father, or my grandparents.” But then people start saying, “Oh, that happened to me.”

These are younger people who are trying to buy concert tickets on Ticketmaster, and then they tried to find cheaper tickets somewhere. Before they knew it, these are smart people who are all of a sudden on websites they're not familiar with, entering credit card information or paying by PayPal and so on. I think the first step is kind of acknowledging it can happen to anyone. It happens to smart people. It happens to people who are really just focused on getting what they want. It's preying on our very basic nature.

I think the first step is kind of acknowledging it can happen to anyone. It happens to smart people. It happens to people who are really just focused on getting what they want. It's preying on our very basic nature. -Alan Castel Share on X

I'll ask you a question I usually ask guests with similar backgrounds to you. Unfortunately I didn't ask you this question before we started the recording, so we'll get the live response. Have you ever been a victim of a scam or nearly been a victim of a scam?

Yeah, I've seen it happen to other people. I've been nearly a victim to the similar scams where I've realized it happened, and then I've also been a victim where I've entered credit card information on websites that I shouldn't have. It was usually because I've been hunting for something for a long time. Finally I saw a better price. I quickly backtracked. It was probably too late, but I canceled my credit card.

I felt stupid. I felt like this is the kind of thing that in my right mind, I'd be like, “Why was I coveting this item, or why was I going after this for so long?” Yeah, I've experienced that shame and guilt. Luckily, it didn't result in a monetary loss, but it resulted in a lot of inconvenience.

I've come close. I've received things in the mail or followed up on things. I think part of it, at least in my case, is this sense of curiosity that I'm really interested in how scams work, but I'm also just curious in general. That has led us to some of the studies we've been doing now to look at curiosity—if a sense of curiosity is also related to scam susceptibility.

It's a slippery question because it depends on what kind of curiosity you're talking about. Curiosity is a good thing. It's something that keeps us going. It keeps your brain sharp, but it's like Pandora's box. You need to know what thing you're opening up.

I'm happy to share more details of how I've been scammed or near scam, but I'm also excited to hear other people reveal that they've been scammed. I think part of the research program that we're interested in is looking at how people can use something called self-reference.

Just like you're saying, we can talk about scams abstractly, but you want to know, “Has it happened to you?” If I share that, people might be like, “OK, this guy's just like one of us or everyone else.” I think it's important. That's why older adults probably feel shame because they think their younger counterparts are not getting scammed. If they reveal this, they'll look like they're susceptible. It's usually a different kind of scam that's going to attract an older adult.

Some of the scams are also romance scams that some people who are obviously in committed relationships might not be interested in, whereas other people might seek that out. That's something that even if they know it's a scam sometimes, they're like, “But I enjoyed the conversation,” or, “This person really seemed to care about me. I knew it didn't seem it was sincere all the time,” in the back of their heads. That’s another type of scam. Sometimes some of them are very convincing, but that's another blurry line where there is this basic human need for connection.

Yeah, I can see how that could be exploited. If someone is in a vulnerable state, if they're looking for a connection and someone offers that connection, it can seem very real. I don't want to say convenient, but “This meets a need that I currently have.”

Yeah, absolutely. Some of it works on a reinforcement schedule, too. You might get some reinforcement throughout the scam. So, not all scams are quick; they take your money and it's gone. Some of these scams—they call them pig butchering—where they butter you up for a while and even allow you to make some investment or get some return on money. You see that it's working. You gave them $2000. A couple of days later, all of a sudden, it's up to $6000. It sounds legitimate. They're like, “OK, let's go for a little more.” You realize, “Well, I made money the first time; it seems like a legitimate thing.” Or, “I can trust this person.” Trust is a big thing here, but you're really entering dangerous waters.

Yeah. I'm starting to hear more and more about people talking about scams. Let's just call it a romance scam—the context of the scam is not necessarily relevant—where the person borrows money from them and then they pay it back. Usually it's not them paying it back, it's some other victim. They're a big circle wiring money to different accounts, but that builds so much trust in the target. They're like, “Well, they can't be a scammer because they paid me back this small amount,” and then the number just gets bigger and bigger and bigger over time, and then the repayment doesn't happen.

Yeah. In psychological terms, this is like a reinforcement schedule that as you get reinforced a few times, you're building trust. Maybe you were skeptical initially so you started with a small amount, but now you have some evidence. You've built up some relationships, you see something that makes sense to you, and then you don't want to lose out on an opportunity.

I always say scammers are—I don't want to say psychologists, but they're like amateur psychologists in the wild. They're not interested in publishing papers and making great discoveries, they're interested in using some very simple psychological principles to make people part with their money.

Are there any recent trends or cases that you're like, “Oh, I really want to talk about this new trend or this case that just came out”?

There are so many interesting things that I'm learning about. I think it's hard to stay an expert in this field. I always say it comes down to some pretty basic psychological principles. That's why I try and not educate people on those, but remind people that we're all human. We all have this drive to connect to be curious, to be interested.

I think every time I see a new scam, I always think, “Wow, that's a clever one. I could see that working because of these principles.” I think as an academic, I like to categorize things. I'm not sure I see them as like, “Oh, yeah, that's a brand new scam. Oh, my gosh, how does that even work?” After a few minutes of thinking about it or looking at transcripts, sometimes I get involved with these things as an expert witness.

You can start to see the trend and say, “This is just a variation on a theme. Yes, it's using Bitcoin, but before we were using mail order catalogs.” Or before that, people have been scammed since probably the beginning of time.

I think the technology aspect has made this so much more accessible, just like everything. It's great to have the internet, email, and so on, but it used to be mostly by telephone, and then it used to be by mail. I think the prevalence is so much greater. Scammers work on volume. They’re going to call 50,000 people in a day. They only need a few responses to make money.

I think it's just a numbers game, and that numbers game has been drastically enhanced by technology, and it's been assisted by social media. We're sharing a lot of information voluntarily. It used to be that scammers would crack into something and get your information, and that's concerning. But now our information is just there for the taking.

Scammers work on volume. They’re going to call 50,000 people in a day. They only need a few responses to make money. I think it's just a numbers game, and that numbers game has been drastically enhanced by technology, and it's been… Share on X

You're yelling it from the mountaintops.

Yeah, just having your resume online. These are things you want to have out there, but all of a sudden, some stranger knows a lot about you.  As a result, you're going to become engaged when they contact you.

I think one of the things that scares me is with advances in AI. Not that AI is inherently bad, good, or anything like that, but that just becomes a force multiplier for scammers. If I don't need to have 500 scammers working in a call center, I can have one computer with an AI voice pretending to be 10,000 people in a call center. The scalability of this stuff becomes enormous and quite troubling.

Yeah, I think you're right again. It's the volume issue that they can work on volume, and now the volume is just increased. I think that's why a lot of research now is looking at not is AI human, but does it pass a Turing test? How can we determine if something's legitimate versus not?

You've probably had work with some chatbots or something where you're talking to them for some maybe marketing reason, and you just have this feeling like, “This is not a human behind here. I'm providing them with some information, but if I was talking to a human, they'd be questioning or asking this.”

I hope we can still be able to differentiate that or just decide that talking to a human might be beneficial, but people are just trying to get your data. Sometimes it's to help you to make an informed medical decision. AI is going to influence so many good things out there, but using it in a socially responsible way is going to be the next ethical question.

Anytime that we get phone calls, are we going to start doing the Blade Runner questions? I'm taking myself there.

Yeah, and at some point it's a phone call that we answer. At some point, it'll just be something that's pinging us constantly. We have to determine what signal, what's noise, what's family, what isn't, and who do we trust? I think that trust issue is always going to be an important psychological aspect. That's why I think it is related.

When we talk about memory and aging, that's something I've always been interested in. Our memory is important for specific details sometimes, but sometimes it isn't. This is a question I've used for eyewitness memory. You know what the Apple logo looks like, right? Because we've seen it so many times, you know what it looks like. But if I asked you more detailed questions like, is the bite on the left or righthand side, you might struggle for a second and realize, “Wait a second. I thought I knew it, but I'm not sure.”

Is there a leaf or a stem? Now all of these details aren't quite as crystal clear in your mind, even though a minute ago, you told me you knew this because you've seen it so many times. Our memory doesn't work like that. Just because we've seen something many times, it doesn't mean we remember it well.

We do have this more gist-based memory like, “I like using Apple products,” or, “I trust this company.” I think as we get older, our memory becomes more gist-based. We might not remember all of these details, but we can remember, I hope, who we can trust. Usually, that's a family member or someone we have a relationship with, and those are more emotionally based memories.

We do have this more gist-based memory like, “I like using Apple products,” or, “I trust this company.” I think as we get older, our memory becomes more gist-based. We might not remember all of these details, but we can remember, I… Share on X

I think that's where scams become interesting, because they're trying to put you in an emotional position where you have to question who you trust. What information are you accurately remembering versus hoping that this is the way that you would want to remember something. I think that's an interesting avenue for future research, looking at how we all remember.

Even when you talk about how a scam went down. When you ask people, “This is something I've been involved in as well, what is our recollection of the scam?” It's not exactly the way it happened. We remember it in a selective manner, and sometimes it makes us look better or worse, but it often focuses on our feelings.

At some point we're like, “At some point, something didn't seem right.” You said, “Well, at what point didn't it seem right? How did you not know that initially?” Or maybe you did, but you weren't following your feelings. That's why coming back to your question about level of education, sometimes people get into this analytic mode of, “How can I sell my timeshare or get rid of my jury duty record,” and you're thinking, “How can I fix this problem using the tools that are available to me, and this person is somehow helping me?” That can lead you into a lot of trouble.

Is it that we are hardwired into thinking people are there to help us as a baseline?

Yeah, I think we like to be cooperative, initially. I think it's hard if someone asks you a question. This is very simple social psychology: the foot in the door technique. If someone asks you, “How was your day?” or, “Is it raining outside?” and it is, as soon as you respond to something positive or favorable, you're establishing this relationship with someone. Even though it's not like a deep relationship, you've answered a few questions for them, or you feel like you're helping them, or they're helping you. That's how people initially start these things.

That's why I say it's best to hang up the phone. Some people like to play around or talk to the person. That can be entertaining, but it can be dangerous. At the core of it, it's the same principles as sales or marketing. You want the person to feel good. You want the person to get something that they need out of it. Then it goes down some sort of other path where you're being taken advantage of.

Have you spent much time trying to play around with people on the phone? There was a period of time where I intentionally answered the calls that were caller ID-blocked or a number I didn't know because I was curious about the scam. At some point I was like, “OK, they're clearly able to figure out that I'm not a good mark or I'm not a mark for this particular scam.” It would hang up on me relatively quickly before I could figure out what the scam was. Have you spent much time interacting with scammers to try to figure out what, how, and why?

I think it's a great question because it often starts with a phone call. Sometimes it says scammer or something, but sometimes it's a phone number that looks familiar. It either looks familiar to your number or a number you call frequently. You're like, “Wait, is this the dentist calling? I just called them. Maybe I should grab it.” And then it's not, but it then sounds like someone else who might be familiar. You're like, “No, this is probably a scam, but, oh, they're talking about roofing. That's interesting. It just rained the other day, and that reminds me, I do need to look for a roofer.”

You're not engaging with the scam, but like I said, it's dangerous because they can be recording your voice. They can be selling simply the fact that you're answering the call. I think what's interesting is you use that word curious. Again, that's what it comes down to. I think that's why sometimes even highly educated people are curious.

That level of curiosity can be beneficial for all sorts of things, but it can lead you into this direction that you're like, “Well, how do I get started on this? I'm curious.” Again, it's like a Pandora's box of you don't know what you're getting. Are you getting an opportunity to learn more about scammers and how they ask questions? Usually, you could play that game for a few minutes. You have to ask yourself, if I was busier today, would I be doing this?

That was what made me stop doing it. I don't have time to play these games.

I once spoke to an older adult, and he was very high functioning and recently retired from medicine. He said, “I'm just really excited to have more time, because I have so much email and so many photos to sort. I have a whole spam folder that I've just never even looked at, and there could be some mess.” I'm thinking, “Wow, that's where it's concerning.” It's true, there's lots now you have time for.

A spam folder is not where you want to go looking, but every once in a while, you might have found something there that I was thinking that's so dangerous. Some of it is having some time on our hands to either answer the phone or answer an email that we normally would be like, “This looks suspicious, or I'm just going to wait.” Sometimes, the best advice is none of these decisions have to be made right away, even if the scammer claims that.

Sometimes, the best advice is none of these decisions have to be made right away, even if the scammer claims that. -Alan Castel Share on X

I think the most convincing scam that I've seen with older adults is the one where you're going to help a grandson or granddaughter who's been in a car accident, has been arrested, and they're using details that the person was on a vacation. The grandparent is convinced and will literally be walking to Western Union to transfer money.

That's where it's hard to say no, I think. It's hard to take a step back and say, “OK, I'm going to call my granddaughter on her cell phone now and just see if she answers.” In retrospect, they were like, “Yeah, why didn't I do that? That would have been a great idea.” But we're just so emotionally tied to this goal-driven behavior.

That's so interesting. I think we could talk for hours about this stuff. It just fascinates me the way that the human mind works and our emotions work.

It's sadly an irresistible problem. Again, from a psychological standpoint, I'm interested in the principles that guide it. There's a few core ones that we've talked about, but there's always a variation on it. I really think these scammers are reading the literature or at least keeping up to date on current events. Student loans, let's go after that. There's going to be voter registration. That's going to be the next thing that's going to be hot in a couple months. It captures people's interest and curiosity.

Yeah. Definitely, I'm 100 percent positive that current events very much play into scammers. It's just the hook to get you in the door. Once you get in the door, the scam continues the same. It's that thing that is current and present. You're like, “Oh, I wanted to know more about whatever the subject was.” If people want to find you online, where can they find you?

I'm a professor at UCLA, so I have a faculty web page. I have a book called Better With Age: The Psychology of Successful Aging, which tries to address some of the topics we talked about today, how to keep your brain sharp, how to stay active. Those are the areas of interest that I have, so feel free to reach out.

Can people get ahold of you on LinkedIn?

Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. I think you can find my email address at UCLA. I've done some expert testimony, so I'm interested in helping people and organizations stay active, stay healthy, and avoid these sorts of scams and fraud.

Great. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

Thanks, Chris. It's been a pleasure.