Getting defrauded is common. It happens everywhere but it’s underreported because of embarrassment. If you’re a victim of fraud the sooner you report the more likely you are to get a better outcome.
To learn more about fraud I’m pleased to welcome Marc Evans, a seasoned financial crimes detective and co-founder of Fraud Hero, who has spent over a decade investigating fraud schemes that affect everyday people. With expertise in social engineering, money laundering and credit card scams he has spent his career uncovering the ways criminals use to exploit victims. His passion for fraud prevention comes not only from his investigative experience but also from his personal experience of identity theft which almost derailed his entry into law enforcement. Through his work Marc has recovered millions of dollars for victims and trained thousands of people on how to recognize and prevent fraud before it happens.
In this episode Marc lifts the lid on the evolving world of financial fraud, revealing the most common scams and the sophisticated tactics criminals use to stay one step ahead of their victims. From bank imposters to phishing scams and CEO fraud he breaks down how these crimes work, why they are so effective and how law enforcement is trying to disrupt them. He also shares practical steps individuals and businesses can take to protect themselves including monitoring of financial accounts, reporting fraud quickly and using digital security tools.
Beyond his law enforcement career Marc’s passion for fraud prevention extends into his entrepreneurial venture Fraud Hero where he educates the public on how to protect themselves from financial deception. He believes knowledge is power and has developed resources to help individuals secure themselves personally and financially. As fraud continues to rise with criminals getting more resourceful and brazen, Marc's mission remains the same – to empower people to be their own first line of defence.
“The best way to protect yourself is to stay informed. Fraudsters are constantly evolving, but if you know what to look for, you can stop them before they ever have a chance.” - Marc Evans Share on XShow Notes:
- [01:10] Marc is a fraud and financial crimes detective. He's worked with law enforcement and is a certified fraud examiner and training coordinator. He also started Fraud Hero to help stop fraud and prevent people from becoming victims.
- [02:14] He's always been passionate about preventing fraud.
- [04:25] Marc was still learning when he began his fraud fighting career.
- [05:52] He sees all types of fraud. He's also seen a lot of social engineering tactics and imposter scams.
- [07:15] Marc has recently seen a lot of bank imposters. This includes a lot of email and message phishing attacks.
- [08:30] Scammers are being more specific now. When they call they even know the victims financial institution.
- [09:49] When it comes to getting your money back from the bank it depends on how long before you file your report.
- [11:44] Tricky scammers not using the sense of urgency tactic.
- [15:25] Marc talks about how quickly money can be withdrawn by scammers,
- [18:40] If a bank calls with a fraud situation, they can respond quickly.
- [21:12] Fraud has been increasing as criminals way risk versus reward.
- [22:11] Prosecutors are beginning to understand better how fraud works and increasing charges.
- [24:03] How stealing mail is the tool of the fraudsters.
- [26:35] Benefits of informed delivery.
- [31:26] The number of victims reporting crime is really low.
- [33:34] Phone number and email spoofing are starting to look more legitimate with AI.
- [35:39] Educating people is the main goal.
- [41:13] Using digital wallets and keeping your cards safe.
- [43:43] Banks want you to show the police report when reporting fraud.
- [45:18] Don't be afraid to learn, reach out, and share what's happened to you.
Thanks for joining us on Easy Prey. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on iTunes and leave a nice review.
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- Fraud Hero Academy
Transcript:
Marc, thank you for coming on the Easy Prey Podcast.
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I'm excited to be here.
Me too. Can you give the audience some background about who you are and what you do?
My name is Marc Evans. I am a fraud and financial crimes detective. I've worked in law enforcement for the past almost-13 years now. Over the past six years, I've worked exclusively only on fraud and financial crimes. I'm also a certified fraud examiner and a training coordinator, so I do a lot of things when it comes to training individuals on how to combat and investigate fraud-related crimes.
Not too long ago, I started a business named Fraud Hero, because I saw throughout my work as a detective that there was more that needs to be done to help stop fraud and prevent people from being victims of fraud.
Cool. What got you into—on the detective side, investigative aside? What got you into fraud? Was it someone tapped your shoulder and said, “Hey, we want you to do this”? Or was it just a case that you got assigned that got interesting?
For me, I was always passionate about dealing with fraud. Actually, before I even joined the department as an officer, I wanted to be a fraud detective. That's not normal for people to hear every time I would say that. They're like, “Wait, you want to be a fraud detective, not homicide or the sexy crimes, I guess?” I'm like, “No, I love fraud.” To me, I love puzzles.
To me, fraud has always been like a puzzle because when you deal with a suspect, our criminals commit fraud, they're trying to hide who they are. They're trying to hide the methods that they use to commit the fraud. For me, if I could figure out how they did it, I'm just passionate about it. I love being able to figure it out and how to outsmart the smart people. For me, it's always been a passion.
Did you have a background in accounting as well?
No. Even growing up, I never even thought I would work in law enforcement growing up. It wasn't until probably right my freshman year of college. I was like, “You know what? I really love puzzles; how can I get back? How can I do something?” Honestly, I'll give credit to there's a TV show called White Collar. I started watching that and I go, “That would be fun.”
At first, I thought about going the federal route, and then I talked to some individuals who were higher up in certain areas. I'm like, “You know what? I think maybe the local route will be really good,” and applied for my department. That was the goal from the beginning. I was taking classes before I even started on money laundering and credit cards, before I even got on a department. Everyone’s, “Yep, that's exactly what Marc wanted to be.”
That's cool that you got to be able to go right into what you wanted to do. What got you interested in wanting to be a fraud detective anyway? Was it an incident? Was the TV…was it just the TV show, or was there some life incident as well?
It was a TV show, but I was also a victim of fraud before I got to the point where it almost stopped me from joining law enforcement. I had my identity stolen. Throughout my background process of hiring, I was still learning a lot of stuff. I checked my credit report and I'm like, “Wait a minute; I don't recognize this account.” It was a delinquent account. I'm like, “I don't have any delinquent account, so I don't understand this. I have to get that fixed before I can join the department and get through the hiring process.”
I go, “This would suck if the average person can't get the job of their dreams or what they want to do because somebody else is using their identity,” and it was an entire process. I go, “There has to be something that can be done to help people.” That's what really drove me to go straight to fraud and say, “Hey, I'm going to be there. I'm going to help other people not have this happen to them.”
Did you ever find out how they got your information or even who they were, or was it just always, “It's just there, and I had to get rid of it”?
I didn't even know how they got in. It wasn't something major. It was a utility company. It was like a power bill, but it was in another state. Somehow, they got my information to open up a power bill in my name, and they never paid it. I had to, of course, contact that company. I don't live there; I live on the other side of the country. They end up fixing it and removing it, and then I had no issues after that. Being a victim and seeing that part of it helped me want to do more.
Cool. What's the current state of fraud now in terms of the cases that you're seeing and what people are doing?
I get to see all different kinds of cases. I get to see credit cards, money laundering, embezzlement. You name anything that has to do with fraud, I've investigated it, real estate, you name it. Some of the bigger ones I'm seeing now, I've seen a lot of social-engineering tactics and a lot of imposter scams.
I know a lot of times when we think about these social-engineering cases that include things like phishing or smishing, baiting and those kind of tactics, and then the imposter scams, where you think of something like a government, law enforcement imposter, or a tech support imposter, I was seeing them not internationally. Some, yes, but a lot of them were local. That's not something that, as a detective, you think of very often. Like, wait a minute. The people who are committing these are actually in the same jurisdiction that I am.
I'm like, “Oh, this is going to be great for me to learn this process. Now I can help these people locally and actually bring us some justice.” If it's something international, I can't go overseas and get a criminal. But if it's located, there's something I can do about it. I've seen a lot of imposter scams over the past couple of years.
Is there a particular, more frequent type of entity they're impersonating?
The ones I'm seeing a lot of are bank imposters, or they are pretending to be either from the bank. Bank employees are the other one I'm seeing a lot of. I call it the CEO or supervisor imposter scam. Those two are pretty large. With the bank imposters, a lot of it occurs because people don't know that the way these scams are happening, that they could actually happen that way.
I see a lot of phishing attacks through email. I see a lot of smishing attacks. I see a lot of text message phishing, and then the vishing, the phone calls. When I talk to a lot of people who become victims of these, they go, “I had no idea that someone could spoof a phone number and make it appear as the bank has actually called me. We trust that number that we see, that possible caller ID. Yeah, it's the bank. They called me and said there's fraud on my account.”
With impersonating the bank, are the people calling just saying, “I'm with ‘your bank’”? Or have they somehow been able to figure out that they have some information saying, “Oh, this person banks with Bank of America, so I'm going to pretend to be Bank of America”?
They are being more specific now. It used to be more broad, where they would sit around a bank, and they would try to elicit the information out of the person to get them to say what bank they belong to. Now it's become a case where they'll call and they already know the banking information. They'll know they're from this financial institution or that one to the point to where they not only trick them into sending money through a wire transfer.
A lot of times through cryptocurrency like Bitcoin, I've seen some. These have made the news lately where they're actually sending couriers to pick up the person's debit or credit card. This person who thinks the bank has this great service, now they'll come pick up your debit card, they'll cut it up for you, and then they'll send you a new one, not realizing that the person who's picking up the card is a part of this criminal organization.
What happens after the person gives this courier their card, now their bank account starts having actual fraudulent transactions. It's usually within a matter of 30 minutes or so, and they're just emptying out their accounts. Those are really tough to deal with.
In working with the banks, are the people usually able to get their money back relatively quick, or is it a pretty long-term process?
It depends on how long they take to file the report. When it comes to fraud cases, especially once we deal with locally, it's a speed game. The faster you can get the report done, the easier it is or the faster it is for us to try to recover those funds. From a law enforcement perspective, we can help with contacting the bank and working with the banks to try to prove to them, “OK, this is an actual fraud case, and this person was an actual victim. It wasn't an authorized transaction.”
Once we talk to them, it's up to the bank to make that decision that they're going to do the refund or not. At the same time, if we can get the person in custody fast enough, they'll say, “Hey, look. The transaction is happening right now.” And they call us to say, “Hey, it just happens that someone just took my credit card. The transaction is going. This is where they're happening.” “Great, let's get on it. Maybe we can go find the person and get your money back.” It all depends on how fast. If a couple of weeks goes by and it's happened, there's a very slim-to-none chance that that money is going to come back.
There was a friend of mine who co-owned a small company. They very seldom took money out of the company. Someone sent an email looking like him to the person who processed, to the accountant saying, “Hey, I'm switching banks; can you give an update where you send payments?” She didn't catch it. It was interesting because normally you hear from people are always throwing urgency in there. “Hey, I need you to do this right now. It’s super important,” but this was actually the opposite.
The scammer was like, “Hey, it's not important, just whenever you can get to it, I'd appreciate it. If it doesn't happen on this payroll, on the next run, that's fine. As long as it gets done later on.” It turned out to be that they didn't send the money for three months. She didn't need to send any money for three or four months.
What happens when they sent the money, it just disappeared. He called me and he's like, “Hey, what should I do?” I'm like, “How long ago did this happen?” He's like, “Oh, this happened within the last hour or two.” He said he had called the sending bank and they were like, “There's nothing we can do about it.” I'm like, “No. Two things you need to do: call back and talk to somebody else. Someone just saying, I'm sorry, there's nothing we can do and not even trying, that's not acceptable. Find out what bank the money was sent to and call their fraud department.”
He called back his bank, and the second person he talked to was still really evasive: “You know, sir, the chances of us being able to do anything are really slim-to-none. I don't really think there's anything I could do.” He ended up hanging up on that person and calling the receiving bank who said, “We see the transaction. We'll stop it immediately while you get the sending bank to let us know.” It turns out that the recipient account had already been flagged for fraud and was already shut down.
That's common. The banks catch it. That's actually really good.
Yeah. Because it had been so long since the initial scam had happened in terms of switching the bank account, apparently other money had already been sent to that bank account and it was shut down, and then it was just a matter of like, “OK, sir, you'll get your money back; you just have to wait for the process to play out now, that we need to reverse the transaction.” Somehow, reversing transactions always take way longer than sending the money in. When you send the money, it's out of your account in two minutes. When you want to reverse the transaction, it's three weeks.
Yes. You want to get some transaction to snail mail.
He lucked out in that the account that it was going to had already been closed. I would hope that because he had contacted the bank so quickly to when the transaction had happened, he might have been able to get the account frozen before the money was withdrawn. How quickly do you normally see money withdrawn or moved out of the receiving bank on these situations?
If it's a bank, a wire transfer, or peer-to-peer transfer sometimes that we see, I've seen money be transferred from one account to another account and taken out within a matter of 10 to 15 minutes. These normally happen with organized groups. They're working already with other people. Sometimes other people that they're working with are not actually criminals; they’re non-willing participants or not-willing participants—they have no idea they're even a part of a scam.
I've seen some banks where the account holder will have the money. Somehow they receive a phishing text. I'll give you a great example. They get a text message saying, “Hey, there's fraud in your account. Click this link in order to verify.” They click the link, text into a fake website. It looks just like the real bank's website but in their credentials, the username, password. They can't log in, but they don't know they just gave over their information. Within a matter of minutes, money's being transferred out of their account to another account. Sometimes, it's the same bank. As soon as it hits that account, there's somebody either at an ATM, or they're walking into the bank to take that money out as soon as it hits.
I've seen it happen except within a matter of sometimes 10 to 15 minutes, depending on how organized the people are. Sometimes, it'll go on over a day or two. Once it's out and depending on how fast they contact law enforcement or they contact the bank, the money's gone. The banks, a lot of times, it's not on anything on them. It's just like, “Hey, this transaction was authorized. It came from your account. It shows that you hit the button. You set the wire, and then this person came and they went through the money.”
Sometimes I've dealt with that person and they're like, “What are you talking about? I was just helping a friend who needed to get money because their account was frozen.” That's usually what the scammer will say. Their account’s locked up. They don't have any way to get their money out, so they asked to transfer it to me. I'm like, “Do you know the money that came from you actually is stolen from somebody else?” They're like, “What are you talking about? You need to find it and give me that money back, or we need to identify who the person was you gave the money to.” It could vary.
Do you think that the person who withdraws the money really is unaware, or they really know what's going on, but that's just the excuse because they think that's going to work?
I've seen both things. Most of the time, they know. If someone's transferring tens of thousands of dollars into your account, that's a red flag. You should know, like, “Hey, this isn't normal for someone to do this.” I've actually seen one person go to four different bank branches within a matter of an hour and a half and do four transactions for just under 10,000. They're trying to beat the whole reporting system, not knowing that structuring is going to actually cause a SAR too. I've seen that happen.
I've also seen some where sometimes it's a kid who was maybe just turned 18 or 19. Somebody sent them a message on Instagram, TikTok, or something saying, “Hey, you want to make some extra money? I just need help with my account.” They fall for it. Like, “Hey, I'll give you a couple hundred bucks if you just help me use your account.” I'm like, “OK, great. I can go make some money and buy some new shoes.” They get to the bank and the bank's like, “Ah, this is fraudulent,” and then we show up. We're like, “Wait, what's going on?” Most of the time, I think they know that something's going on.
How often when you get a call from a bank saying, “Hey, there's a fraudulent transaction in process. We have the person here, and we're stalling.” How quickly can you guys get out and meet the person? Obviously, if it's something you can't say, but are there times that you can actually make it out there while they're still in the bank?
Yeah, absolutely. It just depends on how busy we are. If I'm working on something else currently, it's not going to be within a short time frame. If you're something like, “Hey, you know what? You caught me in a moment. I'm free. I'm on my way right now.” There are times I've definitely been able to get there quick enough. If they've been doing the scam for a while, they know how long it takes for a typical transaction to happen, and then they get spooked and they leave.
A lot of times they leave the fake ID there because they're using a fake ID most of the time. They'll leave the fake ID with their picture on it, which is great for us. They're like, wait a minute. They know they have a limited time. They'll scoot really quick.
Yeah. I imagine the people who've been doing this for a while, they know in the same way that the bank tellers know when something fishy is going on. The serial scammer knows when the bank teller is being fishy also.
Yeah, if it's somebody who's new to the scam world, they may not catch on, but for someone who's been doing it for a while, they know exactly when someone is taking their time. They're like, “Wait a minute. It doesn't take this long normally,” and they just leave out of fear that they know. Kudos to them for being smart on that end, but eventually they still end up getting caught. I know people think, “Oh, it's fraud; I can get away with it.” No, you can't hide forever. Eventually you're going to get caught.
Yeah. If you walked into a bank and there's a camera—which there's probably a camera in every bank, plenty that you don't see—I’m sure that once you're on camera, they've got a photo. It’s just a matter of time.
Yeah, and there's cameras everywhere, not even just in the bank. You walk outside, there's cameras everywhere. I think every house probably has cameras on it by now and in every business. There's always a camera somewhere.
I was just out shopping earlier, and the local shopping center now has license plate reader cameras. Every driveway has multiple license plate reader cameras. I'm like, “OK, they're ready to catch people.”
For me, the fraud has become so bad. I see the numbers from a distance; the fastest growing crime I've ever seen. I know we talked a lot about there are robberies and burglaries, but with fraud, a lot of criminals that now are weighing the risk versus reward, they go, “Wait a minute. I can make a counterfeit check and get $10,000, or I can try to burglarize the house and get a TV and try to pawn it for a couple of hundred bucks. But what's going to give me more time in jail?” As of right now, it's breaking into someone's house and getting a TV or robbing someone. But if you're like, “Hey, it's only a check. It's a financial crime. No one got hurt.” And no, somebody got hurt because someone lost their money. Maybe someone can't pay their bills this month, someone can't pay for school, or whatever it may be, it hurts people in the long run. Some people don't think about that.
Are you starting to see the prosecutors being more aggressive in trying to push for legislation or push for charges that will result in longer jail time?
Yeah, because I think it became more effective in understanding how fraud works. From a prosecutor side, I've dealt a lot with the DA's office. A lot of times, they see these fraud cases and they go, “I don't understand this. Help me out.”
One thing as a detective, what I get to do is I get to handle the entire case. As part of handling the entire case, I have to know what happened on the victim's behalf, what happened with the bank. I have to understand and be able to explain and articulate exactly how it happened to give the district attorney, and then I have to be used sometimes to testify and explain to a jury or a judge, “Hey, this is how it happens.” Now that more attorneys are starting to learn not only the effects of it, but how they actually happen, we've gotten a lot of legislation.
In my state, one of the things that we pushed a couple of years ago was mail theft. Usually, a mail theft was a federal charge. A lot of mail theft goes hand in hand with fraud. If you're stealing mail, you're committing fraud. That's just how it works.
It's the only reason why you're stealing mail.
Yeah. You're looking for checks, you're looking for credit cards, and for IDs. Our legislation got on board. A couple of years ago, they actually made mail theft a state and local charge. Sometimes, manpower at the federal level, they don't have the manpower to handle every single case that comes their way. We can now move forward with mail cases at our level, and our attorneys can understand like, “Hey, this is a big problem.” They see it on news all the time, but they never understood it. They're like, wait, I think one question I would always get is, “How are they getting into the mailboxes?”
Obviously, there are multiple ways. They're either breaking into it. They put a crowbar—old-school way. They use a legitimate key that they either bought from another criminal, they stole from a mail carrier, or they're making a counterfeit key. They're using that to get into the mailbox. It takes a matter of 30 seconds to a minute to clean out the entire mailbox. They have a community mailbox.
A lot of times, prosecutors will go, “How does that correlate with fraud?” And then I'll explain, “What do you get in the mail? Bank statements, credit cards, IDs, and then they use it. Before you know it, your credit card is being used.” You're like, “Wait a minute. I have my credit card in my wallet.” “The new one the bank sent you is not in your wallet. Someone's out using it.”
Are you starting to see the scammers, and this is just me thinking through and I've seen it in other areas, where I'm going to pretend to be the person, get a new credit card issued, have it sent, and so me as a consumer, I didn't even know that that request was made, so therefore I don't even know the card was even issued because they intercepted mail twice: once to figure out my account number and the second time when a card was sent. Are you starting to see stuff like that as well?
Not so much. They'll intercept it. I'll see it in different ways. Now, the intercepting the mail, I've seen the change of mail address.
OK, yeah.
I guess there's a way of intercepting mail, just in a different manner. But I've seen that, where they'll go online and just change the person's address, and then all of a sudden, “Wait a minute. I'm not receiving mail in a week.” Something's going on, but they didn't know that a new card was coming.
I've seen somewhere, they're like, “No, I don't even use that card. That card is linked to an account that I have with XYZ business, and it's in a box in my room.” “Were you expecting a new credit card?” They're like, “I don't know. Let me check.” And this is where something like Informed Delivery will come in handy.
They'll check Informed Delivery and they're like, “Wait a minute. I was supposed to receive a credit card from them.” “When were you supposed to receive it?” “Yesterday.” “When did somebody use your credit card?” “This morning.” We're like, “Your credit card was taken out of the mailbox.” I've seen it that way. If your mail got delivered somewhere else, they need to contact the postal inspector and see who's forwarding your mail. Where it's going?
Yeah. I'm a big fan of the Informed Delivery. I've got that set up for me. You can even do it for UPS, or FedEx will do that as well. Even if you don't know, occasionally, I'll get an email saying, “Hey, your package is scheduled to arrive in two days.” I'm like, I didn't order anything. “Hey, honey, did you order something?” She's like, “Yeah.” I'm like, “OK, it’ll be here in two days.” I think it's important to know when you're expecting stuff because if you're expecting mail, even if it wasn't something that you ordered, if you know that something's coming, you can be there to pick it up and make sure that it gets to where it's supposed to be, or your family member who needs it.
Yeah, I'll sign up for all those services, same thing with the UPS and FedEx. It's just like you said, if I didn't order something, but somebody is sending me a gift, at least I know that, “Oh, I should be expecting a package from UPS on this date, around this time.” I'll have a porch pirate or someone waiting in front of my house and waiting. Or if I get that random text message—everybody gets them. I'll probably have a whole folder of them. USPSA. “You didn't receive your package today. Is that the warehouse?” You click this link and like, I think I'd probably be getting one of those at least every other day.
Those, and you didn't pay the toll for the toll road.
I saw those recently.
We've got a refund for you on your latest purchase, even though they won't say who they're supposedly representing.
Some of those are really good. I've had the phone calls a lot too. I'd have fun with the phone calls. I think I had one scammer that I convinced that I was a scammer too.
Nice.
He started talking. I go, “You know what? Your script is not that great. If you really want to work on that script and you really want to make some money, let's start working together.” He's like, “Wait, what?” I go, “I got a better script for you.”
It's funny. I was actually at a fraud conference when that happened. I put it on speakerphone. He didn't know what to say. I was like, “Hey, look. When you want to get some real money, call me back.” He never called back. I was hoping he would, but I like to have fun with them sometimes.
Yup. I was about to say who they were. A relative of mine likes to have fun with them, but I'm always telling my relative, “You’ve got to be careful that you don't inadvertently tell them something. In your attempts to have fun with them, you don't want to tell them just one more piece of information that they can use to legitimately scam you at some point in the future.”
Yeah. I don't advise people to do that. It's just because I've dealt with this so much. I know, but I definitely don't advise people to do it. I've seen AI as a part of it. I have my first. I was able to tell the voice was completely like an AI assistant or something because it started to sound really robotic, but it was actually really good at responding when I was asking the random questions that I asked. It wasn't until the point where I actually asked the caller, “Are you real?” It was a long pause, and then there was a really weird laugh. He's like, “Oh, of course I'm real.” And it sounded like a laugh out of a horror movie, not that a robot would make. That got interesting.
Yeah. I've had one or two that were definitely AI, but they were surprisingly good. I was in the beginning, I'm like, “I think this is a real person.” What got me to feel good that it wasn't a real person or at least that it was pre-recorded auto responses was that the call center background noise always started at exactly the same time. Five seconds into the response, somebody would laugh in the background, or you'd hear exactly the same chatter. They took the response and always put the beginning of the same background noise in it, so you could hear that that laugh just happened over and over in the background. It's like, “Oh, this is an AI.” I started playing around with it, trying to get weird responses out of it as well, and then it finally got mad at me and hung up on me.
What I ask you from the victim side—I know I've interviewed a number of victims and in talking with lots of people in this space, that the number of people that report the crimes happening is really low. Any numbers that we hear on fraud are probably significantly underrepresented. What are some of the challenges that you've had in dealing with victims and getting them to report? I know there's the aspect of shame and humiliation that just like, “Oh, I can't believe I fell for it, so therefore I don't want to come forward.” How do you as an investigator help people to feel comfortable enough to talk about what happened?
The first thing I tried to do was help them understand that they're not alone in this and that fraud is such a big world. I tell them, “This happens to everyone.” I relate to them and say, “Look, I've been a victim of fraud. If anybody who tells you they haven't been a victim of fraud, to some extent, they're lying. It's not saying that because you're a victim that you got tricked. It could have been a result of a data breach or something like that, where your information was just compromised.”
I'll try to put them at ease to let them know, “Look, you're not alone. I'm going to help you through this process. Sometimes it may be a little longer than you like. I can't guarantee you that your money lost, you want to get that back.” Also the biggest thing is information and the education part of it because a lot of victims do not talk to them. They don't understand how it happened, or they don't know that it could happen at all.
It's not the, “I'm the greatest person; it will never happen to me.” It's just, “Oh, I had no understanding that that could happen to anyone,” like the text messages or the phone calls. Like I mentioned earlier with the phone number spoofing, people don't know that there's technology out there—and it's been around for a while—that could show a different phone number. You're like, “Wait, that's possible?” “Yeah, that's absolutely possible, and it happens all the time.”
The text messages…hey, I get those messages all the time; they look very good. Now with AI, bots, and things like that, they become even better because now someone can write out an entire email, and it looks very legitimate. A text message and there's no grammar problems in it. It also depends on the type of fraud that they dealt with. Some are more emotional than others.
Take for instance, we just have Valentine's Day. Romance scams, they are very emotionally taxing. Victims, when they fall for those scams, they really don't want to talk about it because they feel more shamed and embarrassed than anything else. I explain to them like, “Hey, it's not your fault.” In the same way that they have their profession as whatever they may work in, the same way I'm a detective.
Those scammers study. That's what they do for a living and they're very good at it. It's a psychological thing. It's just helping them understand that and then explain to them like, “Hey, look, it happens everywhere, but most of them go unreported because of those reasons.” I would say, for the most part, if you took any stat when it comes to fraud, you can probably double or triple it in some instances on the amount of actual fraud that's actually occurring.
I'm waiting for the new stats to come out this month. I'm like a nerd when it comes to the stats for everything. I know the FTC puts out their stats every year, and it's usually around this time of February. I'm waiting for the new stats to come out, so I know the numbers have increased.
I know last year in 2023, the total fraud all the US was $10 billion, reportedly. I know the FBI staff were between $10 and $12 billion. I guarantee it's more around $20 to $30 million that was actually lost. It's just helping them understand that they're not alone in this process. Afterwards, teaching them like, “Hey, here's what you can do to protect yourself in the future. Don't let it happen again. Here are some steps to take.” And that's the important part.
Is that what you're doing with fraud, trying to educate people?
That is a hundred percent what I'm doing with fraud here. The whole purpose of that was as a detective, I would get these cases. By the time I got the case, it was too late. The money's gone, your identity has been stolen, someone's done something. About a year and a half ago, my wife and I was like, “Hey, there's got to be something else that we have to do about this.” I go, “Let's go into educating.”
One thing I get to do is I could see a lot of scams before they hit the news. And I go, I can use the knowledge that I acquire from dealing with these scams to educate people before they become a victim. With Fraud Hero, I was like, “You know what? Let’s teach people to basically be their own hero. Here are the steps that you can take to protect your credit, and here's what you can do to protect your identity online as best you can. Here's how you can be safer with credit cards. Here's what to watch out for with these imposter scams and some red flags.”
I've been building out this whole process like, “Hey, here's a course on exactly what you need to not be a victim.” Some people will say, “Marc, why are you doing this business? Aren't you going to put yourself out of your detective job?” I go, “Yes, absolutely. That's the point.” I was like, “My job should be diminished to some extent because I want to stop people from being a victim in the first place and rather be trying to investigate afterwards.” Do I love being an investigator? I a hundred percent love it. But if I could reduce it, then that's even better for me, and it's a win in my book.
Yeah. I would be happy if I could shut down my podcast because there's just no new scams. There's nothing new happening; everybody's safe. “Chris, your podcast has to shut down.” I would be perfectly happy if that were the case, but here I am five years later, and I feel like there's more topics. Every year, there's more topics than the previous year.
For me, the biggest thing has always been just the lack of information. We put out a lot of information through fraud. Obviously, I've dealt with a lot of people who are professionals in fraud. We deal with a lot of similar cases and put out the same information, but it's just getting it out to as many people as possible. It is my goal. The more people I can educate and train on how to fight fraud from the beginning and how not to be a victim in the beginning, on the back end, it's going to help just the world in general so much more because now, “Hey, you can't scam this person.” “Why not?” “Because they know what your scam is.” When they see that red flag, they're hanging up the phone.
If there's someone texting them and saying, “Hey, you're a fraud in your account.” You're not clicking the link. You're going to go to your actual account and you're going to check it, or you're going to call the bank. You're going to look on the back of your credit card, debit card, call the bank, and then say, “Hey, I just had a phone call and someone said I have fraud on my account.” “Oh, no, we didn't call you, and there's no activity of fraud on your account.” Just those little steps will help go a long way when it comes to protecting them and getting rid of the scammers. Once you get rid of the victim, the scammers, they can't scam anymore.
I love it. I remember one time I got a call saying, “Hey there's been a fraud on your account.” I said, “Are you OK if I call you back at the number on the back of the card?” They were like, “Absolutely. That's what you should do.” I was like, “Oh, so they really are from my bank.” I still hung up and called back, but I had that interaction with a scammer before. They do anything they can to keep you on the phone instead of actually calling the number at the back of the card.
They don't want you to hang up the phone because as soon as you're hanging up, then there was a chance that you're going to talk to a friend, you're going to call the law enforcement, call your bank, and then they've lost you. I've seen some people on the phone for three hours before. They were just so convincing and I go, “Yeah, that's what they do, but that's not normal for someone to be on the phone for three hours trying to get you to buy gift cards, send a wire transfer, or use a crypto ATM. It's just those red flags; you just got to be aware of it.”
What are some of the low-hanging fruit of things that people can do to reduce the chance of them becoming a victim of fraud?
One of the first things I tell people, especially victims of identity theft, is check your credit report. I was shocked at how many people don't monitor and don't check it on a normal basis. The first thing I say is either go to your bank because they give you a free one every year. You can go to certain websites. They will give you a copy of your credit report weekly now to an extent. It's become that bad.
The first thing I say is check your credit report if you've been a victim of identity theft. That way you know if it's more accounts, it's not in your name. The second thing is monitor your bank accounts. Set up bank alerts. I have a bank alert set up on every account that I have. I know every single transaction that I make. If I get that text message or phone call, someone saying, “Hey, you have a fraud in your account,” I go, “I didn't get notification.” My normal means that there was a transaction.
Banking alerts, the same thing. Sign up for things like Informed Delivery is another thing. Using a digital wallet, I think, is necessary for your credit cards and debit cards. I've investigated enough credit card and debit card fraud that using your digital wallet, something like Apple Pay or Google Pay, I think there's Samsung Pay, PayPal, all have these digital wallets. Adding your card to it is very simple. It's tap to pay. It doesn't utilize your actual card number when you use it. It keeps your card number safe. Those are probably four of the things that I tell people.
Sometimes I'll send them an entire list and I go, “Look, this is going to be tedious, but if you really want to protect yourself going forward, here's a list. You don't have to do it right now, but just take your time throughout when you get time to sit down and go to these different websites.” I tell them, “Go to data broker websites and remove your information. If you want to pay a service, then they can do it for you, but get as much information.”
Preventing fraud is like an ongoing thing. There's no one-stop shop. There's no one business or one service that can do it all. It's a combination of all of it, but it all starts with the person knowing what could happen and what could be done to protect themselves.
I assume they can find those resources on your website.
Yup. If you go to fraudhero.com, you can find those resources. It explains and give you a free action plan. Download for free. It tells you, “Hey, here are the quick tips and tricks of what you can do to start protecting yourself now.” I have an entire course that I have coming pretty soon for our Hero Academy. That will be a course for everyone to be able to go in and be able to say, “Hey, here's an in-depth way of how you can protect yourself.” You can do it at your own time, your own pace.
Of course, other resources like where to file a report. Things like filing a report with the FBI at ic3.gov, filing a report with the Federal Trade Commission at ftc.gov, or contacting your local department, contacting your bank. Those are probably the first four things you want to do too if you've been a victim—FBI, FTC, your local department, and your bank. Make sure you do multiple. If you do just one, it's better to do it across the board than just say, “Hey, I called my bank and I'm waiting for them to get done.” No, call your bank and call your local police department to help out.
Does that help in working with banks? If you say, “Hey, I filed a police report. Here’s the case number.” Does that show the bank a little bit more seriousness, or does that make a difference? I don't know.
A lot of banks actually require you to file a police report because they want you to show that it's valid. I know a lot of departments, I know mine, if you're a victim of identity theft, you can't just even make a report online. You have to go in person to prove you are who you are to make the report, so it makes it more legitimate. I don't see someone who's not been a victim of identity theft going to actually make a report in person to say, “Hey, I've been a victim.”
A lot of banks require it. It's just, “Hey, the law enforcement is looking into it.” They're probably expecting at some point to be contacted by law enforcement. When they do, like, “OK, we already flagged that account.” I'm like, “Great.” That's when the relationship between law enforcement and the banks come in handy. I have a lot of networking friends who work in banks. They go, “Hey, look, I got this case I'm working. I think one of your account holders is being victimized. I want to make you also look good as well and say, ‘Hey, you're going to work with us, we're going to help them, and we're going to stop them from not only victimizing the person but also from victimizing the bank.’”
I love it. I love it that you've taken your daytime job and made it into a night and weekend passion as well.
I've had some long nights, a lot of coffee.
I can imagine. Any parting advice before we wrap up the episode here?
Just make sure everyone stays vigilant. You can't stop what you don't know. They said that the best thing to do is to educate yourself first, then make those reach out, make those contacts. Don't be afraid to share what's happened to you because you're not the only person that it's happened to. It happens to millions of people all around the world, billions of people probably all around the world. Don't feel like you're alone in this, and don't be afraid to come forward and just talk about what happened to you, because what you share could help somebody else not be a victim of the same thing that you may have experienced.
Awesome. Marc, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
Thanks, Chris. I appreciate it.
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